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This is a sharing of some parts of the Interview with Ven. Bodhi who has returned to U.S.A. after a long period of stay in Sri Lanka. He was heading the Buddhist Publication Society in Kandy.
Question 1
So you will live as a Theravada monk in a Chinese
Mahayana monastery?
Venerable :
In
ancient India it was not rare for monks of different Buddhist schools
to dwell peacefully in the same monastery. I have found Master Jen
Chun to be one of the most admirable monks I have ever known: vastly
learned, with profound understanding of Buddhism, yet utterly simple,
humble, and selfless; strict in discipline yet always bubbling with
laughter and loving kindness. He is, moreover, an authority on the
Agamas, a body of literature in the Chinese Tripitaka that corresponds
to the Pali Nikayas. Thus I find this approach quite congruent with
my own. He has asked me to give teachings at the monastery on the
Pali suttas and the Pali language, and the resident monks and many
lay followers are keen to attend both courses. We hope to make the
monastery a place where well-disciplined monks of any authentic
Vinaya tradition can reside and live together harmoniously. The
place, incidentally, is named Bodhi Monastery, but it is sheer coincidence
that I wound up at a monastery that bears my name.
Question 2.
Would you recommend the study
of Dhamma to all meditators?
Venerable:
I
wouldn't say that one needs a thorough knowledge of the texts before
one can start to practice meditation. As with most Buddhist practitioners
today, I entered the Buddhist path through meditation. But I believe
that for the practice of meditation to fulfill the purpose entrusted
to it by the Buddha, it must be strongly supported by other factors,
which nurture the practice and direct it towards its proper goal.
These factors include faith, in the sense of trusting confidence
in the Triple Gem the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha; right
view, a clear understanding of the basic principles of the teaching;
and virtue, the observance of Buddhist ethics, not as a mere code
of rules but as a dedicated effort to radically transform one's
conduct and character.
Individuals will naturally differ in the weight they assign to the
complementary factors of study and practice. Some will aspire to
extensive scriptural knowledge, driven by an urge to understand
the principles imparted by the texts. For such people, the practice
of meditation may play a relatively subordinate role in this phase
of their spiritual growth. Their emphasis will instead be on deep
investigation and clear comprehension of the Dhamma. Others may
have little interest in scriptural study or philosophical understanding
but will instead be disposed to meditation practice. I myself believe
the healthiest pattern is one of balanced development.
In my own case, under the influence of my early Buddhist teachers,
I have wanted to understand Buddhism in detail, in its horizontal
extension as well as in its vertical depths. Despite my early ambition
to plunge directly into meditation, my destiny seems to have steered
me towards teachers who did not
exclusively emphasize meditation but rather an integration of study,
meditation, and character development. They repeatedly guided me
in the direction of slow, gradual, patient practice, utilizing a
broad approach to spiritual cultivation, and this has agreed well
with my own disposition.
It seems difficult for many modern practitioners to go beyond their
immediate empirical experience to some of the doctrinal aspects
stressed by the tradition.
Again, I think faith has an important role to play here. It allows
us to place trust in precisely those disclosures of the Buddha that
run contrary to our conventional understanding of the world, that
conflict with our ordinary ways of engaging with the world. Remember
that the Buddha's teaching "goes against the current"
(patisotagami) of one's habitual assumptions and attitudes. After
all, most of our habits revolve around the desire to enjoy pleasure,
to avoid pain, and to preserve the illusion that the universe centers
around our individual self. When one's personal experience of suffering
becomes vivid enough, it will induce one to become repelled by these
habits and to place trust in the Buddha's disclosures on reality
as our guidelines to liberation.
Of course, at the outset of one's involvement with the Dhamma one
need not take on board the full baggage of higher Buddhist doctrine.
The Buddha himself often adjusted his teaching to the capacity and
temperament of the people he was addressing. When teaching people
not yet ready for the doctrine that leads to final deliverance,
he taught the benefits of generosity, of observing the five precepts,
and of treating others with kindness and respect. But whenever he
saw people in the audience mature enough to receive the higher teaching,
then, as the texts put it, he would "disclose that doctrine
special to the enlightened ones: suffering, its origin, its cessation,
and the path." Each person lives and learns according to their
capacity, and the teachings can embrace this diversity as well in
the West as they have in Asia. But what is essential, along with
the diversity, is fidelity to the core insights and values imparted
to us by the Buddha from the heights of his supreme perfect enlightenment.
Question 3
What do you see as the prospects for lay
Buddhists here in the West?
Venerable:
I think in the West today there are significant
opportunities for lay people to become engaged with the Dhamma at
higher levels than in traditional Asian Buddhist societies. In Asian
countries, laypeople consider their primary role to be supporters
of the monkhood, to provide food and other material requisites to
the monks. They express their commitment to the Dhamma through devotional
activities, but with few exceptions feel almost no incentive to
plunge into the deep waters of the Dhamma. Now in the West, because
of higher standards of education and greater leisure, laypeople
have the precious opportunity to become deeply involved with the
study and the practice of the Dhamma.
Question 4
How can a person practice both as a layperson
and as someone sincerely
treading the path to liberation?
Venerable:
I
recommend the five qualities of the "superior person"
often extolled by the Buddha: faith, virtue, generosity, learning
and wisdom. We have already discussed faith. Virtue has a much wider
scope than the mere adherence to rules and precepts during the period
of a meditation course. Beyond this lies the deliberate cultivation
of the positive qualities of character that underlie the basic restraints
of the five precepts. These positive qualities include the cultivation
of loving kindness and compassion; the development of honesty and
contentment; restraint over one's sensual desires and fidelity to
one's partner; a strong commitment to truthfulness in all one's
communications; and a sober, clear, balanced mind.
At this level the practice of Dhamma in daily life does become an
art of living, not in a sense that supplants the traditional idea
of a path to deliverance, but as a series of guideposts for a person
living in the world. Here Dhamma becomes a comprehensive map for
navigating one's way through the many difficult challenges we encounter
in everyday life. It's not a body of rigid regulations, but a set
of values that enable us to relate to others in wholesome and beneficial
ways.
The third quality, generosity, is understood in Buddhist countries
to mean making offerings to the Sangha, but I think we might give
generosity a broader application by including in it the active expression
of compassion for those less fortunate than oneself. One might,
for instance, decide to allocate a percentage of one's regular income
to charitable organizations and projects.
The fourth quality of the earnest layperson is learning or study.
This entails an effort to acquire and I'll use that expression again
a clear conceptual understanding of the Dhamma, at least of its
basic framework. Even if one isn't ready to study the texts in detail,
one should remember that the Buddhist understanding of existence
underlies the practice of meditation, and thus that systematic study
can contribute to the fulfillment of one's practice.
The fifth quality of the lay follower is wisdom, which begins with
intellectual understanding and culminates in experiential insight
gained through meditation.
Question 5
If all this can be done as a layperson,
why ordain as a monk or nun?
Venerable:
While there is much that a
diligent layperson can accomplish within the domain of household
life, those fully inspired by the Dhamma will naturally feel a pull
towards the life of renunciation. When one's faith is deep enough,
when one feels that nothing less than complete surrender to the
Dhamma will do, the lure of the saffron robe becomes irresistible.
As a monk or nun, one gains advantages that a layperson, even an
exemplary one, does not enjoy: one's every moment is dedicated to
the teaching; one's whole life, in its innermost recesses, is governed
by the training; one has the leisure and opportunity for intensive
study and practice; one can devote oneself fully to the service
of the Dhamma.
Within lay life there are still many tasks and duties that keep
one from engaging fully in the practice. Though laypeople today
can readily undertake long-term meditation retreats, there are tangible
differences between the practice of a layperson, even a dedicated
one, and an earnest monk whose renunciation is grounded upon right
view. I don't want to sound elitist (okay, I'll admit it, I am one!),
but one danger that emerges when laypeople teach meditation and
the higher Dhamma is a penchant to soften, even squelch, those aspects
of the teaching that demand nothing less than the ultimate cutting
off of all attachments. Instead they will be prone to offer a compromised
version of the Dhamma, one that subtly affirms rather than undermines
our instinctual attachment to mundane life.
I am aware that the monastic life is not for the many, and I would
hardly like to see a replication in the U.S. of the Asian Buddhist
social model, with its large number of routinized monastics passing
time idly in the temples. But I also think monastics have indispensable
roles to fulfill. After all, they do represent the Third Jewel of
Buddhism, without which any transmission of Dhamma is bound to be
incomplete. They wear the robe of the Buddha and conform to the
discipline prescribed in the Vinaya, the monastic code. They represent,
at least symbolically, the ideal of complete renunciation -- though
individual monks and nuns may still be very far from such an ideal.
They can be regarded almost as a reflection, albeit a pale one,
of the Deathless Element in this world, "Nirvana in the midst
of Samsara." In spite of the many shortcomings of individual
monks (myself included), the monastic life still makes possible
full commitment to the training, and thereby points others in the
direction of renunciation and ultimate liberation. And finally,
the monastic Sangha is "the field of merit for the world,"
which enables devout laypeople to acquire the merit that supports
their own quest for Nirvana.
Question 6
Do you have any parting advice you would
like to convey to our readers?
Venerable:
In following the Buddhist path
to its consummation, I think we need to adopt a long-term perspective,
and this means developing both patience and diligence. Patience
ensures that we aren't avidly intent on quick results, out to add
personal achievements in meditation to our list of credentials.
Patience enables us to endure for the long run, even through the
hard and sterile phases that we must inevitably confront. Diligence
or effort means that though the way might be long and difficult,
we don't become discouraged, we don't give up or become lax. Instead
we remain resolute in our determination to tread the path no matter
how many lifetimes it may take, in the confidence that to the extent
we strive with diligence we are making progress, even if that progress
isn't immediately apparent.
To follow the Dhamma properly, I think we also need an attitude
of humility. It's not through a quick study of the suttas, or even
a few years of meditation retreats, that we can really claim to
understand and teach the Dhamma correctly. It might be prudent to
conceive of the Dhamma as a very tall mountain, and to regard ourselves
as mountain climbers still in the foothills with a long way to go
to reach the top. What we need is the faith that this particular
path will lead us to the top of the mountain, the patience to persist
day after day in climbing that path, and the diligence not to give
up until we reach the peak.
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